Curse

Bobby2 · Jun 08, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyko

Unsuspecting strike averaged at 61.9 DPS
Jagged strike averaged at 68.7 DPS
and a mobeius build averaged at 66 DPS

thats as far as i will go, but if you want all the numbers i used i can start another thread and post all the results with screenshots. It seems that peoples assumptions about mobeius might not be all that accurate >.> (granted that to actually say that for sure i want to do more that just one test for each, but i suspect that my build and mobeius might average out to be even in the end)

Sorry to ask but... how much do you spec into Healing Prayers for the travesty that is [skill]vigorous spirit[/skill]?

1. ANY 'worthy' investment (6-8 ish?) significantly detracts from your damage output.
2. The supposed pressure relief it offers your healers is, liek, wtfpwnt by [skill]save yourselves[/skill] in every area I've been to (granted, no Explorer leetness - but it includes all of the hardest/most rewarding bitz

)

So yes, DO post your attributes to back up your statements.

Unreal Havoc · Jun 08, 2008, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Sorry to ask but... how much do you spec into Healing Prayers for the travesty that is [skill]vigorous spirit[/skill]?

1. ANY 'worthy' investment (6-8 ish?) significantly detracts from your damage output.
2. The supposed pressure relief it offers your healers is, liek, wtfpwnt by [skill]save yourselves[/skill] in every area I've been to (granted, no Explorer leetness - but it includes all of the hardest/most rewarding bitz

)

So yes, DO post your attributes to back up your statements.

I'll do it for him.

[build prof=A/Mo name="Death Blossom Farmer" dag=11+1 cri=10+1+2 healin=10][Golden Phoenix Strike][Critical Strike][Moebius Strike][Death Blossom][Critical Defenses][Critical Agility][Vigorous Spirit][Live Vicariously][/build]

Taken from: http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:A/...Blossom_Farmer

Bobby2 · Jun 08, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

That's kind of you.

Now be nice enough to test against [skill]way of the assassin[/skill] builds as well.

Psyko · Jun 09, 2008, 12:44 AM // 00:44

13 crit strikes
12 dagger mastery
11 Healing prayers is the amount i put into it. I dont use save yourselves because i am only rank 1 luxon, making it hard/impossible to keep up permanently and thusly not worth it in my mind

2 major runes(510 hp)... call me crazy, but then thats what we have been doing this whole time anyway isnt it?

and i use 13 crit and 12 dagger to test mobeius as well...

[skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]critical strike[/skill][skill]moebius strike[/skill][skill]death blossom[/skill][skill]critical eye[/skill][skill]critical agility[/skill]

was the exact mobeius build i tested it off of, spaming DB and mobeius on recharge. However i did consider that someone who uses the build more often would have a better sequence of attacks.

so is there anything different from other moebius builds that i should know about? I took 13 crit, 12 dagger to be standard for most sins

Edit: Just tested again with the above moebius build and my original build minus the Vigorous spirit. Totals were 73dps for moebius and 74dps for Way of the assassin. I also used the farming build, minus the healing spells again, 68 dps

i have seen all i need to. Whether or not my build looks good is not the question, the question is whether it does or does not do the job as well as moebius, and from what i can tell it does just as well.

I will admit that the way i handle my damage avoidance could be better tho, so i will look for a way to improve that

FlamingMetroid · Jun 09, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

you should be getting 80+ dps from Moebius easy, you're definitely doing something wrong.

Unreal Havoc · Jun 09, 2008, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

That's kind of you.

Now be nice enough to test against [skill]way of the assassin[/skill] builds as well.

With the introduction of Way of the Master I wouldn't waste my time with Way of the Assassin on none Dagger Assassins and there's certainly better elites to use too.

Critical Eye does more than good enough a job for Dagger Assassins due to their fast attack rate and the heightened energy regain. Getting 16 energy back from using Critical Eye (+1), Critical Strike (+3 x2), Zealous Daggers (+1), and Critical Strikes @13 (+3) and pairing it with Moebius Strike (for seriously impressive results) means it's probably one of the best methods of energy management in the game.

Bobby2 · Jun 09, 2008, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Go AB'ing to get your Lux rank up - but 82.32% AL-based damage reduction for the entire party, even for 60-75% of the time, is still far better then any Monk skill that may strike your fancy.

As for what is 'standard issue gear', go read the guide. My current set up is
12+1 Crits
12+1+1 Dagger
default 15^50 Zealous daggers
Full Survivor armor, 3 Vitae (620HP, 650 on defensive set)
[skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]death blossom[/skill][skill]moebius strike[/skill][skill]save yourselves[/skill][skill]critical agility[/skill][skill]assassin's remedy[/skill][skill]critical eye[/skill]

Having both [skill]critical eye[/skill] and [skill]critical strike[/skill] is overkill, you won't ever be that desperate for energy. I opted for Eye, because I want to start Blossoming asap (I have to compete with other sins

). Some people choose Strike for the guaranteed crit (more likely if they also slot [skill]critical defenses[/skill], but personally I'd not choose it over [skill]assassin's remedy[/skill]).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyko

11 Healing prayers is the amount i put into it

Rawr, as long as you stay alive! No Mending/WoH jokes from me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyko

2 major runes(510 hp)... call me crazy

You're crazy. Ever talked to a (decent) Monk, let alone played one yourself? Even NPCs would have a clear preference. In my eyes, you sacrificed 110-140HP for the maybe 48HP heal you get during the spike your Monk did have trouble with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyko

but then thats what we have been doing this whole time anyway isnt it?

Nope! Minors ftw.

Quote:

Last edited by Unreal Havoc : Today at 01:04 AM

PS Unreal stop ninja'ing my posts

Psyko · Jun 09, 2008, 11:13 PM // 23:13

meh... i think ill keep at least one major rune... cus i have this one Mark of Rog build that is quite amusing to play.

otherwise, this has been a very inspiring conversation/discussion/whatever, in that i will go back and see what i can do to make this build better. However, i still think that i can use the basic idea and come out with a build that works as well as anything.

and perhaps i should have said earlier that i only H/h, that might have made my build look a little less... confusing? Either way, i make builds like this more as a work of "art" if you want to call it that. I make them to have synergy between the parts, so that they all work together in the most fluid way possible, but at the same time working as well as possible in the conventional sense.

guess what im saying is thanks for the input and everything, but as long as this is my game to play, im gonna play it my way :P

and to Flamingmetroid: i think it may have something to do with the fact that the Master of Damage only has two "adjacents" and they tend to not rez themselves quickly. But at the same time, if they rezed faster, my build would rise in DPS as well. Numbers dont lie, and i didnt change anything, i went in, hit him for about a minute and a half, then checked the DPS. Sorry that your moebius has competition...

so, im done. And unless this thread is totally unsalvageable... back on topic? >.>

FlamingMetroid · Jun 09, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyko

and to Flamingmetroid: i think it may have something to do with the fact that the Master of Damage only has two "adjacents" and they tend to not rez themselves quickly. But at the same time, if they rezed faster, my build would rise in DPS as well. Numbers dont lie, and i didnt change anything, i went in, hit him for about a minute and a half, then checked the DPS. Sorry that your moebius has competition...

I've tested it myself, MS/DB does more damage than WotA.
here's some proof:

WotA

MS/DB

Lest121 · Jun 10, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Even if it does more damage most of you guys fall to see that MS/Death spam only works well on one Target, once it's dead you can't maintain that level of damage because you have to restart the combo, don't let the master of damage fool ya, I rather WatA build, Wata is better for switching through multi-opponents.

Unreal Havoc · Jun 10, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by underverse_ninja

Even if it does more damage most of you guys fall to see that MS/Death spam only works well on one Target, once it's dead you can't maintain that level of damage because you have to restart the combo, don't let the master of damage fool ya, I rather WatA build, Wata is better for switching through multi-opponents.

You're forgetting the AoE damage dealth by Death Blossom and the utility of being able to spam it and recharge all of your skills with Moebius Strike. You're also forgetting that no matter which build you use you have to restart your combo regardless when you switch targets. With Moebius Strike & Death Blossom most tend to use Golden Phoenix Strike to get into the double striking quicker which churns out even more DPS.

Still think Way of the Assassin is a better elite choice?

Way of the Assassin is a poor elite that can easily be supplemented by Critical Eye or Way of the Master saving your elite slot for something that is far more useful.

Compare both builds with similar skills for a more accurate result:

[skill]critical agility[/skill][skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]death blossom[/skill][skill]moebius strike[/skill][skill]critical eye[/skill][skill]critical defenses[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

[skill]critical agility[/skill][skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill][skill]death blossom[/skill][skill]way of the assassin[/skill][skill]critical eye[/skill][skill]critical defenses[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

BlackSephir · Jun 10, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by underverse_ninja

Even if it does more damage most of you guys fall to see that MS/Death spam only works well on one Target, once it's dead you can't maintain that level of damage because you have to restart the combo, don't let the master of damage fool ya, I rather WatA build, Wata is better for switching through multi-opponents.

MS/DB spam has like... 4s recharge.
But go ahead, take your lil Way of the Assassin.

Oh and by the way, Healing Hands is the best elite for a warrior. Don't let the rest of the community fool you.

FlamingMetroid · Jun 10, 2008, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

MS/DB spam has like... 4s recharge.
But go ahead, take your lil Way of the Assassin.

Oh and by the way, Healing Hands is the best elite for a warrior. Don't let the rest of the community fool you.

I lol'd
I guess let the bad players remain bad if that's what they insist on

RavagerOfDreams · Jun 10, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by underverse_ninja

Even if it does more damage most of you guys fall to see that MS/Death spam only works well on one Target, once it's dead you can't maintain that level of damage because you have to restart the combo, don't let the master of damage fool ya, I rather WatA build, Wata is better for switching through multi-opponents.

lolwut?

MS/DB is the absolute most powerful PvE assassin build in the game there can be no arguing the point (thats not a perma sf build....)

*AoE check
*High Powered Chain check
*Low Recharge check
*Reasonable party support/utility check

AoE is really the thing that sets it apart from all other sin builds as your dealing 80 damage per DB to all surrounding targets. Also underverse the chains have the same recharge so both builds adapt equally well to another target (that being said the moebius chain actually has a better chance of recharging faster)

argue with me i dare you

Psyko · Jun 10, 2008, 10:38 PM // 22:38

metroid, you are using unsuspecting strike. That is going to limit your damage due to energy costs.

The way my build works is through manipulating the recharge time of skills to simulate a moebius/DB spam

The way it works is this. Lets assume you have Critical Agility like every good sin should. This makes your attack speed right around 1 second.

So it takes about 1 second for each skill to cast after you have pressed the button.

that means that from lead attack to dual attack you take three seconds to cast and entire chain.

this doesnt change with moebius, because of its 2 second recharge time. Tack on another second for it to cast (in other words, for you to swing) and you have three seconds in between death blossoms no matter what death blossom's recharge is.

So all you have to do then is find skills that can be used both assuredly and repeatedly.

1 second recharge on jagged strike, 4 seconds on golden fang and wild, and two on death blossom.

1 second to swing, lead attack done
1 second to swing, off hand done, lead attack recharged.
1 second to swing, dual attack done
1 second to swing, lead attack done
1 second to swing, second off hand done
1 second to swing, dual attack done, first off hand recharged
1 second to swing, lead attack done,

so on and so forth, the two off hands recharge fast enough to be on call, and with crit strike chance so high, you are pretty much guaranteed to have enough energy to cast a FIVE ENERGY ATTACK. (your problem is lack of energy, effectively making the recharge time longer for unsuspecting strike if you have not had enough crits, and i have tested it, it is noticable)

now... moebius follows the same basic principles, now assuming you have golden phoenix in the build

1 second, off hand done
1 second, dual attack done
1 second, moebius done
1 second, dual attack done
1 second, MOEBIUS RECHARGING, regular dagger attack, no extra damage
1 second, moebius done
1 second, dual attack done
1 second, MOEBIUS RECHARGING, no extra damage

see where im getting at? Spamming moebius will not get you to use DB any faster than a regular spammable dagger chain. The difference come from the fact that my build can manage to do SOMETHING with that loose dagger attack, giving me either a deep wound or an extra 30 damage.

so quit arguing with me, i know im right, i have tested it, i have theorized it, i have gone over it again and again. I am really not that amazed, however, that no one here could figure it out.

and as a final note to metroid. Next time you test, use the right build.

RavagerOfDreams · Jun 10, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyko

metroid, you are using unsuspecting strike. That is going to limit your damage due to energy costs.

if your using WotA and having energy problems your doing it wrong simple as that

o and btw i did the test myself results for WotA are first Moebius Second

Psyko · Jun 10, 2008, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

if your using WotA and having energy problems your doing it wrong simple as that

.... well this isnt surprising

when you base your energy regen off of a change occurance, no matter how good your chances are, you will have problems if you try and stretch that chance too thin.

i told you, there are REASONS why i use the attacks i use... and they go farther than just recharge times....

but hey, if you doubt me still, go and test the seperate attacks yourself. There IS a difference

FlamingMetroid · Jun 10, 2008, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

I guess let the bad players remain bad if that's what they insist on

again, don't argue with him. I know he's wrong, you all know he's wrong, if he wants to keep using WotA, let him, he's handicapping himself.

Psyko · Jun 10, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

again, don't argue with him. I know he's wrong, you all know he's wrong, if he wants to keep using WotA, let him, he's handicapping himself.

you say im wrong, but i dont see you actually testing my build correctly

in fact, i know what you would do even if you DID test the right build

the bleeding will alter your dps, stretching out the time he runs the meter but not adding enough damage. You would just let that go, then post the rediculously low DPS that comes with it...

im trying to be reasonable... but if you are not, then i guess there isnt anything to do...

FlamingMetroid · Jun 10, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

o hai, I'm still right

crazy isn't it?